For an update on this post, please see “A Personal Odyssey,” which I wrote a year and a half later.
Is this a vision of the eternal torment awaiting unrepentant sinners? Umm, nope. Sorry. Just some clay monsters created by children in my pottery class, superimposed on a photo of the insides of my fireplace. Cool, huh?
Hell has always been a puzzlement for me. Knowing the character of God from scripture, and later from personal acquaintance, it’s been difficult for me to reconcile myself to His being involved in the never-ending torment of humankind. I’ve skirted the issue, knowing there was something there I wasn’t getting. But then there are a lot of things I don’t get. I put them on a shelf, dust them off once in a while, maybe turn them over and around trying to figure them out, and wait for God to be ready to ‘splain them to me. Hell is one of those things.
David Flowers has just posted a blog on this subject. Here’s a teaser:
The traditional view of hell was born in the second century AD and it later became a concrete idea in the Middle Ages after being perpetuated by Augustine (c. 354-430). It was Augustine’s views that largely shaped Western Christianity.
Tertullian (c. 160-230) believed that hell was a “secret fire under the earth” where torment was everlasting. Catholic theologian, Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), taught that believers would be able to watch the eternal damnation of souls in hell from their lofty place of comfort in heaven. And of course it was Dante’s Inferno in his Divine Comedy that gave us a vivid close-up of the torments of this medieval hell.
And like the famous Jonathan Edwards sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, we revel on with the preposterous idea that God is moody and hell-bent on having his enemies over for a barbecue. Edwards’ notorious speech is most reflective of a vivid imagination than it is of sound biblical exposition.
These ideas, along with a whole host of pagan beliefs on hell, have penetrated the church and continues to permeate the culture today. Still today books are written by folks who have “been to hell and back” and have lived to scare the hell out of you too! It is a message of fear intended to produce converts.
It’s no wonder that many are presently emerging to see the pendulum swing in the opposite direction on the doctrine of hell.
Anyone carefully reading the book of Acts can’t help but notice the absence of “hell” in the preaching of the apostles. There isn’t even a promise of heaven to convince others to “walk the isle” and receive Christ.
The apostles did however speak about the resurrection of Jesus and the people saving themselves from “this corrupt generation” (Acts 2:40). They did proclaim a coming judgment foretold by Christ and the Old Testament prophets.
Before we look at those Scriptures… let’s take a minute to reflect on the words of the one who is largely responsible for a slew of misguided teaching and practice within our faith.
“Do not follow my writings as Holy Scripture. When you find in Holy Scripture anything you did not believe before, believe it without doubt; but in my writings, you should hold nothing for certain.” St. Augustine, Preface to the Treatise on the Trinity
I’d love to know what you think about David’s post. It’s long, but well worth reading, and I do believe this subject is worth our time to delve into.
Blessings, Cindy
Interesting post – thanks for sharing. After time in God’s Word – I also have come to the same conclusion the writer did. I don’t believe in an eternal torture it doesn’t fit with the ways and characteristis of God.
However in regards to salvation, the more I read the more I think the final decision of eternal life or death isn’t finalized in this physical life. There is so much deception. It is like leaving it up to your child who has no idea what is right and true to make a decision about their life. They simply don’t know. I’m not saying ALL will go to heaven, but I’m sensing from the scripture there is more to the plan.
What do you think?
Rachel
Hi, Rachel
I’m definitely leaning toward David’s camp. I don’t see God forcing people to choose Him, but I don’t see Him torturing them for all eternity, either–even the notoriously evil, let alone the uninformed or ill informed.
I know Romans 1-2, how we’re all without excuse, but I do think that you and I have had a far greater opportunity than many people to know Him, and it doesn’t seem just that He wouldn’t give everyone an informed choice. Maybe that’s only my human reasoning and I don’t really understand, but maybe not. Maybe my hesitation is me not quite listening to the Spirit telling me what He’s like and what He’s not like. Or maybe it’s my having read CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce and having liked it very much.
I don’t believe the image of God as saying “Got’cha! Don’t you wish you’d prayed the prayer ten seconds earlier? Too late now!” I realize that’s an exaggeration, but I’m sure you get my point. It’s hard to imagine anyone choosing to turn their back on God once they were facing down eternity, but I don’t see Him rejecting anyone who wants Him, either.
What makes you feel that God may give people another chance beyond death? I’d be interested to hear. I do hope you’re right, but I’m just not sure.
Love, Cindy
Good evening. There’s certainly a lot to think about concerning this. I know that we oftentimes tend to simplify things; that is, adopting an idea, placing a few passages around the perimeter, and telling ourselves that we have this all figured out.
Eternal damnation is a hard concept to grasp. even if one holds to the traditional teaching. I’m certain that there’s more to the picture than we can currently grasp.
This is something that happened to me about three weeks after being born of the Spirit. I was 18 years old and, during a conversation with my sister, I made an unwise comment over which I was immediately convicted that “I cannot do that anymore.” I feared (really feared) that I had commited the unpardonable sin and perhaps lost my salvation right after coming into the household of faith. This tormented me for years, however, it had one very positive benefit. I began to really watch my words after this incident. In later years, I became astonished at some of the statements Christians could make and not think twice about it.
I don’t know how this fits into the discussion, but there it is. This is certainly a topic in which we need clarity. To sift out tradition and imagination as we seek a more complete understanding. Thanks for taking on such a topic as this and fostering debate.
Blessings always in Jesus name.
timbob
Thanks, Timbob
It’s definitely a touchy subject, and an important one. What a shame if our mistaken interpretation should warn people away from Jesus. We need to represent Him as He truly is, and this is a big topic for people–especially those who aren’t yet of the household of faith.
I’m not absolutely certain where I’ll end up on this one, but I’m open to David’s ideas. He seems to back them up well.
Love, Cindy
Cindy,
I want to respond to your question. But I have so many questions in this area. I just get a VERY strong sense from the Spirit that there is much more. I hestiate to write because of the can of worms it can open up, when I still feel I’m in the midst of instruction on the topic. But I just want to mention a couple of things. And no way do I feel I have it figured out
I feel like I say that a lot.
I don’t know that it is so much as a second chance verses God’s timing in things. When you really read the Bible does it put a limit that if you don’t believe in this physical life? I haven’t found that. If there is a verse then PLEASE let me know. I think we make that assumption.
And, what about those of the first resurrection verses second? Rev 20:5-6 When I see the deception around me, and looking at the entire Word of God there seems more to the plan than just “our” decision in this life. Here is a post on some of the verses that have made me think that there is more to the picture. I’m not saying all will be saved, but I think there is more after this physical life as we know it. Just a note this post didn’t sway me – I was feeling this before, it simply resonated with me on several verses.
http://growandknow.blogspot.com/2010/03/sometimes-i-trembletremble.html
The Bible is interesting because it is so deep there are so many verses that speak to me on this. I need to make up a document.
The current belief leaves salvation too much in our hands and not enough in God’s. It minimizes the sacrifice of Christ – in my opinion.
Rachel
Hi, Rachel
Yeah . . . I’m not sure what’s going on here, either. I’ve had it on a back shelf for a long time. Jonathan Edwards style sermons on the angry, vindictive God (god?) definitely don’t resonate with me as being congruent with the picture we get of God in the OT, let alone the NT.
If God leads me, I’ll look into it further. I’m sure He will–just not sure this is the timing. At any rate, I’m very interested in anything He might say to you.
I’m with you . . . it is taking in all of God’s character OT and NT. We’ll let Him lead it which I’m sure He will. What a great desire to know His truth, and nothing but the truth.
Dear Rachel,
It is not my faith that I believe God will eventually save all. I live by the faith of God. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
God is the Savior of all men. That is not a quote from
Mark Phillips, It is God saying it over and over.
I Tim 3:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I have to believe God. Cannot God do anything?
If He said it, He will Accomplish it. I don’t have to worry about it. It will be done. No matter what men think about it in their religions and traditions of men.
The great white throne and the lake of fire is not the end for the vast majority of people who where not saved in this life. Only the first fruits were saved now. God will use us to help bring others around in another age, or eon as the Bible calls it.
Forever dose not mean what most have been told.
God is accomplishing His purpose for us all in different aions. Not all at the same time for all, but each in their own order that God has caused to be.
God’s judgment is always for good of the ones judged, corrective in nature in LOVE. Same as for our children in this life. We love our children and correct them in love. Are we more righteous and more merciful then God?!
God bless once again,
Your brother Mark
I found this a very informing read.
http://www.jwirth.com/docs/hopebeyondhell_rev2.pdf
Hi, Mark
Thanks for stopping by and commenting. I downloaded the book you linked. It sounds like it will be worth reading–thanks!
Cindy,
I know that more and more people today are not believing in hell. The subject, like “sin” is not preached hardly at all any more. Why? Because people get offended. If it’s in church, then it is not preached. Why? Because the people won’t be coming back. And if the people don’t come back, then no tithes, thus no church. Sad.
A couple of years ago, I did a study on the subject. I believe it to be truth.
http://rjperalta.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/everlasting-punishment/
God’s blessings to you,
Richard
Hi, Richard.
I answered you at your blog–good post, tho I remain not fully persuaded to either point of view.
I agree with you about the motives of pastors preaching on hell and sin and all. It’s sad, but the traditional church system requires that they keep a congregation, and to do so, they can’t be offending them. In the times of the middle ages and the reformation, people had no choice but to “go to church,” and paying the tithe was a matter of taxation.
Now-a-days, people either choose to pay or not to pay, and with finances tight, the choice is often not to pay.
As you know if you’ve been reading my blog, we’re not in that system. While God certainly has used and continues to use it, I kind of think there’s a more desirable way. A more difficult way, for sure, but IMO, very much worth it. But all that isn’t on the topic, is it?
Love you, Bro
Cindy