“If only I could have justice!” People have cried out for justice down through the ages, and how many of them have received it? If you’re wronged in some way, what do you want? What would make it right?
My husband and I had this conversation several weeks ago. I gave him a hypothetical situation:
Let’s pretend you have a brother
I always wanted a brother. We could have had a blast . . .
C’mon — just work with me here. Let’s pretend you do have a brother, and you’re close. You’re tight. And one day you get a phone call and you learn that your brother is dead. Some creep killed him because he couldn’t get his wallet out fast enough. What do you want?
I want that @#&% to fry!!!
Okay, I understand that. But will that make you happy? Will it make it right?
No, but at least I want justice for my brother.
But what is justice? Isn’t it making things right? Restoring what was taken?
Well yeah, yeah — that’s right. But I still want him to fry.
And is frying this creep going to give you what you want?
Absolutely!
But what do you really want most?
I want him to fry!
At this point I feel a little coaching may be necessary . . . I ask him, “Don’t you want your brother back?” He allows that this is true, but if his brother is dead, how could that happen?
And this is the limitation of our “justice” system.
Justice IS making things right. The best we can do is to even out the playing field a little bit. The mugger took a life? He must not be allowed to have an unfair advantage because of his crime. One way to prevent this unfair advantage is to execute him. He will not enjoy life, even life in prison, while an innocent man, whom he murdered, lies in his grave, and his relatives and friends grieve.
But if you execute the criminal, his relatives also grieve, and what have they done? They will grieve anyway, if they’re decent people, that their kinsman has done such a shameful deed and caused such pain to his own family and to the family of the dead man. That’s not just either. They only suffer because of their decency. If they were uncaring louts, they wouldn’t suffer.
So far we’ve made a hash of this justice thing. We can’t fix a crime like this. But God, who raises the dead, and to whom all live, He can make it right. He can restore the dead brother and he can dry all the tears of the innocent.
And He can fry the murderer, too. And perhaps He’ll do that. But let’s say that the murderer’s mother is a sweet old saint. She grieves the evil deed of her son. This woman is not at fault. She did the best she knew how to do in raising her son and now he’s murdered a man and not repented and he’s burning in hell. And heaven for her is not heaven and she wishes she could be in hell too, if this is how it’s going to be.
“God will take away her love for her son,” you say? Really? Do you mean the God who told us to love even our enemies? Now He’s taking away her love for her son? Against her will? Does that sound like something He would do?
“Well then, He’ll make her forget her son. Or He’ll cause it to be that her son never even existed. Then she’ll have peace.” Really again? Will He ask her permission first? And even if she agrees, will God also forget? We are to love our enemies so that we will be like our Father in heaven. So we know that He loves this wretched man whom He created, who has rebelled against all that is decent and good, and who has now come to this pass — he is burning and always will be. What of God? Must He forever mourn the loss and the continuing agony of this loved one?
Let’s not even discuss the tangled mess it would make of our minds for God to cause all of us to forget all of those who didn’t make it, and were either annihilated or condemned to never ending torment. I suspect that was what prompted the Roman Catholic Church to teach that there would be no remembrance in heaven.
No, that doesn’t work. For true justice to be done to everyone, all people must be restored — even the vilest. What won’t wash off will burn out, and the seed that remains; the good that God put in at the first; must be coaxed back into life.
Is this true? Well, we have all of Romans ahead, and while I’ve explored (at this point) up to chapter nine, I still don’t know how it’s going to end. Maybe the great apostle Paul will correct my thinking (and if he does, I will be corrected). If he persuades otherwise, though, maybe it would be well to listen to that also. After all, it’s the truth we seek — not the vindication of a lie we’ve grown accustomed to.
Next time: Grace, and then on to the rest of Romans chapter one.
wonderful post Cindy … there is so much hear to speak of …but what stands out … when people believe in an eternal torment .. punishment without mercy .. they don’t know the true Father but are worshiping the image the king of Babylon has set up claiming it to be God. They bring harsh judgment/correction upon themselves (which measure you give, you will receive) which entails shame in that they would condemn another to this end when they that judge them are as they are. They neglect to see their own depravity of righteousness, or to experience the power of God’s redemption. May eyes open to these truths … and know the merciful perfect justice of our heavenly Father.
I’m thankful you are highlighting these topics … how important they are and how much deception, lies, false visions and dreams propel them forward .. but not for long.
Thanks, Rachel
God is good. I think that’s our missing ingredient. We don’t need to redefine the word “good” in order to apply it to our God — HE is the definition of goodness and love, and He has written His goodness on the hearts of all mankind.
You said in your post, he’s murdered a man and not repented and he’s burning in hell
where in the Bible do you see, a person going to hell for murder and not repenting
the Bible clearly states/teaches that people are sent to hell for not accepting on their behalf Christ death, burial and resurrection for forgiveness of their sins. Not for works they have done (good or bad) the works determined their levels of punishment at the great white throne judgement
That quote (that you quoted from my post) isn’t intended to be a statement of doctrine. If you go back and read again, hopefully it will be clearer — though my writing isn’t always at the highest of skill levels.
That statement is intended to depict my speculation as to what the mother might be thinking in her distress at the way her son has conducted his life, and over his now (in her mind) hopeless death.
Any way you look at what you said the statement is not correct. Again because if you are trying to be true to the Bible and present a situation that is based on the truth of the Bible. You cannot say a person is in hell because they murdered a person and did not repent. You will not find that kind of thinking any where in the Bible. In the first place anyone that has died without Christ is not in hell now they are in Hades in the center of the earth. where everyone went before Christ death and resurrection the saved and unsaved alike. The English translators of the English Bible have confused the issue by rendering several different Hebrew and Greek words simply as hell when they actually refer to different places. In hebrew (sheol) is sometimes translated (hell) and sometimes (the grave). The parallel Greek word (hades) is always translated (hell). Sheol or hades is the general designation for the abode of the dead, both believers and unbelievers, before the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
Hades contains 4 compartments 1.( paradise ) Luke 16:19-22 / 2.( torments ) luke 16:19-22 / 3.( tartarus ) 2 peter 2:4 / 4. ( the abyss ) Revelation 9: 1-11
Paradise was the section where the souls of all believers of the Old Testament resided after death. When the resurrected Christ ascended to heaven, he brought with Him the souls of all belivers who had died up to that time. He transferred them from Paradise to Heaven (Eph. 4:8-10)
No human being went to heaven until Christ entered into the presence of God (The Father) as a resurrected Man. If Jesus was accepted in His humanity, that would mean God had accepted Jesus’s sacrifice for sin. Only under these conditions could believers be admitted into the abode of God. Christ had opened the way for believing mankind to enter into the presence of holy God. Belivers who die in the Church Age go directly into the presence of the Lord ( Heaven ).
The 2nd compartment, Torments, is a temorary fire for the souls of unbelievers. between paradise and torments was a great chasm fixed . Now that paradise has been emptied, hades and torments are actually synonymous. But using hell for both creates confusion because there is yet a final hell designated as (tophet) in Isaiah 30:33 and (gehenna) “lake of fire”. The lake of fire is occupied by the beast, false prophet, dictators of the revied Roman Empire and Palestine in the tribulation until the second resurrection. Then all unbelivers will be raised, judged according to their works at the Great White Throne and sent to their final punishment.
The 3rd area, Tartarus, is the prison of the fallen angles involved in the satanic conspiracy of Genesis 6. They were the only angles who had not been watching the activities of the Son of God on earth and, therefore, were not aware of the defeat of satan (Christ death and resurrection). They still entertained hopes that satan would emerge victorious in his battle to keep Christ from going to the cross and who would then free them . After three days and three nights in the grave Jesus went to Tartarus in His resurrection body to issue a victory proclamation to the spirits in prison.
The 4th area, The Abyss, The place of imprisonment for the incorrigible demons who violated certian rules for angelic creation, including the demon assault army under the leadership of Apollyon to be relased at the middle of the Tribulation ( Luke 8: 30-31 and Romans 10: 7 also Revelation 9: 1-11, Revelation 20: 1-3
Sheol and Hades are one and the same
Sheol is the Hebrew term (Old Testament) and Hades is the Greek term (New testament) for one and the same place
Both terms describe the Realm or Place of the Dead – Belivers in Christ (righteous) (Before Christ Death and Resurrection) and UnBelivers (unrighteous)
Both places Sheol and Hades are a Temporary place
Sheol & Hades
The location is in the center of the Earth
Abbadon (Hebrew) means destruction is paralleled with Sheol and Hades
Abbadon is the Hebrew name for the unbelivers side of Sheol or Hades
The Pit is the descriptive term for the unbelivers side of Sheol or Hades
Abbadon is the proper name and The Pit the descriptive name for the unbelivers side of Sheol or Hades
You statement bring up question as to what you believe because reading what you wrote i am understanding that you believe in a work salvation as many people do these days even though they say faith/belief in Christ when they are are really saying faith in Christ plus repenting, baptism, asking Christ in to your heart, Confession of Christ, Making Christ Lord of their life, and so on.
If that is not the case, then why present a situation that is not in line with Biblical truth
You are missing the point, D. The mother’s thoughts are not biblical. They are the fictitious thoughts of a fictitious woman who has been hurt badly. She is NOT being used (by me) to present doctrine. She is being used to present pain in the heart of the mother of a wayward child. I don’t even believe in a place of never-ending torment. God isn’t like that.
As to the rest of it, while we might have both points of agreement and disagreement, it’s off topic and I’m not interested in discussing it here.